Frogmouth wrote:
Ulleungdo was surveyed in 1794 before the Ulleungdo maps you posted were drawn. In the report only three islands were reported Jukdo, Bangpaedo and Ongdo.
Here is the report.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/1794-Ulleungdo-Report1.jpg
Usando was not reported as a neighbour island by Leekyuwon either.
Usando was another name for Ulleundo’s neighboring island of “Jukdo.” Not only is it located in approximately the same location as modern-day Jukdo on old Korean maps, but King Kojong also suggested that Usando was another name of Jukdo. Here is King Kojong’s conversation with Inspector Lee Gyu-won in 1882:
The king said, “Have the inspector come forward,” and Lee Gyu-won came forward.
The king said, “These days there is the evil practice of foreigners regularly coming and going to Ulleungdo and occupying convenient places. Also, Songjukdo (松竹島 – 송죽도) and Usando (于山島 – 우산도) are next to Ulleungdo, but there are still no details on the distance between them and what products they have. You were chosen especially for this trip, so pay particular attention to your inspection. We also have plans to establish a settlement there, so be sure to prepare a thorough map and report.”
Lee Gyu-won replied, “I will carry out the mission to the best of my abilities. Usando is just Ulleungdo. Usan was the name of the ancient country’s capital. Songjukdo is a small island about thirty ri offshore (相距爲三數十里). The products there are rosewood trees and pipestem bamboo.”
The king said, “It is called either Usando or Songjukdo (敎曰 或稱芋山島 或稱松竹島) all of which is written in the Yeojiseungram (輿地勝覽 – 여지승람). It is also called Songdo (松島 – 송도) and Jukdo (竹島 – 죽도), and together with Usando, three islands combine to make up what is called Ulleungdo. Inspect the situation on all of them. Originally, the Samcheok commander (三陟營將 – 삼척 영장) and the Wolsong commander (越松萬戶 – 월송 만호) took turns searching Ulleungdo, but they were all careless, inspecting only the exterior of the island. This has led to these evil practices.
Lee Gyu-won said, “I will go deep inside and conduct my inspection. It is occasionally called Songdo and Jukdo because it is to the east of Ulleungdo, but there is only Songjukdo, no separate Songdo and Jukdo.”
The king asked, “Did you possibly hear that from previous inspectors?”
Lee Gyu-won said, “I have not yet talked with previous inspectors, but that is the summary of what I have heard.” Link
Notice that King Kojong said that another name for Songjukdo was “Usando.” Songjukdo was present-day Jukdo. The reason that Lee Gyu-won could not find Usando when he surveyed Ulleungdo in 1882 was that the people living on Ulleungdo at the time were referring to the island as Jukdo rather than Usando. At other times in history, Usando was probably the preferred name. The island residents said they had heard of Usando, but did not know where it was. I think the reason they did not know its location is that it was just another name for Jukdo.gerry at marmot
Below is the 1882 conversation between King Kojong and Lee Gyu-won in the original Chinese,a Korean translation, and my English translation:
召見檢察使李奎遠 辭陛也 敎曰 鬱陵島近有他國人物之無常往來 任自占便之弊云矣 且松竹島芋山島 在於鬱陵島之傍而其相距遠近何如亦有何物與否 未能詳知 今番爾行 特爲擇差者 各別檢察 且將設邑爲計 必以圖形與別單 詳紀錄達也 奎遠曰 芋山島卽鬱陵島而芋山 古之國都名也 松竹島卽一小島而與鬱陵島 相距爲三數十里 其所産 卽檀香與簡竹云矣 敎曰 或稱芋山島 或稱松竹島 皆輿地勝覽所載也而又稱松島竹島與芋山島爲三島統稱鬱陵島矣 其形便一體檢察鬱陵島本以三陟營將越松萬戶 輪回搜檢者 而擧皆未免疎忽 只以外面探來 故致有此弊爾則必詳細察得也 奎遠曰 謹當深入檢察矣 或稱松島竹島 在於鬱陵島之東而此非松竹島以外 別有松島竹島也 敎曰 或有所得聞於曾往搜檢人之說耶奎遠曰 曾往搜檢之人 未得逢著 而轉聞其梗개矣.
——
召見檢察使李奎遠 辭陛也
檢察使 李奎遠을 소견하였다. 하직인사를 하였기 때문이다.
The King called forward Inspector Lee Gyu-won so that he could give his farewell greeting.
—-
敎曰 鬱陵島近有他國人物之無常往來 任自占便之弊云矣 且松竹島芋山島 在於鬱陵島之傍 而其相距遠近何如亦有何物與否 未能詳知 今番爾行 特爲擇差者 各別檢察 且將設邑爲計 必以圖形與別單 詳紀錄達也
하교하기를, “울릉도에는 근래에 와서 다른 나라 사람들이 무상으로 왕래하면서 제멋대로 편리를 도모하는 폐단이 있다고 한다. 그리고 松竹島와 芋山島는 울릉도의 곁에 있는데 서로 떨어져 있는 거리가 얼마나 되는지 또 무슨 물건이 나는지 자세히 알 수 없다. 이번에 네가 가게 된 것은 특별히골라서 임명한 것이니 각별히 검찰할 것이다. 그리고 앞으로 고을(邑)을 세울 생각이니 반드시 지도와 함께 별지에다가 자세히 적어 보고할 것이다” 하니,
The king said, “These days there is the evil practice of foreigners freely coming and going to Ulleungdo and doing as they please. Also, Songjukdo (松竹島 – 송죽도) and Usando (于山島 – 우산도) are next to Ulleungdo, but there are still no details on the distance between them and what products they have. You were chosen especially for this trip, so pay particular attention to your inspection. We also have plans to establish a settlement there, so be sure to prepare a thorough map and report.”
—-
奎遠曰 芋山島卽鬱陵島 而芋山 古之國都名也 松竹島卽一小島而與鬱陵島 相距爲三數十里 其所産 卽檀香與簡竹云矣
이규원이 아뢰기를, “芋山島는 바로 鬱陵島이며 芋山이란 바로 옛날의 나라 수도[國都]의 이름입니다. 松竹島는 하나의 작은 섬인데 울릉도와 떨어진 거리는 20∼30리쯤 됩니다. 여기서 나는 물건은 檀香과 담뱃설대라고 합니다”라고 하였다.
Lee Gyu-won replied, “I will carry out the mission to the best of my abilities. Usando is just Ulleungdo. Usan was the name of the ancient country’s capital. Songjukdo is a small island twenty to thirty ri offshore (相距爲三數十里). The products there are rosewood trees and pipestem bamboo.”
—-
敎曰 或稱芋山島 或稱松竹島 皆輿地勝覽所載也 而又稱松島竹島與芋山島爲三島統稱鬱陵島矣 其形便一體檢察鬱陵島本以三陟營將越松萬戶 輪回搜檢者 而擧皆未免疎忽 只以外面探來 故致有此弊 爾則必詳細察得也
하교하기를, “芋山島라고도 하고 松竹島라고도 하는데 다 輿地勝覽 에 실려 있다. 그리고 또 혹은 松島․
竹島라고도 하는데 芋山島와 함께 이 세 섬을 통칭 鬱陵島라고 하였다.그 형세에 대하여 함께 알아볼 것이다. 울릉도는 본래 三陟營將과 越松萬戶가 돌려가면서 수색․검열하던 곳인데 거의 다 소홀히 대함을 면하지못하였다. 그저 외부만 살펴보고 돌아왔기 때문에 이런 폐단을 가져왔다.너는 더 구체적으로 살펴볼 것이다.”
The king said, “It is called either Usando or Songjukdo (敎曰 或稱芋山島或稱松竹島) all of which is written in the “Yeojiseungram” (輿地勝覽 – 여지승람). It is also called Songdo (松島 – 송도) and Jukdo (竹島 – 죽도), and together with Usando, three islands combine to make up what is called Ulleungdo. Inspect the situation on all of them. Originally, the Samcheok commander (三陟營將 – 삼척 영장) and the Wolsong commander (越松萬戶 – 월송 만호) took turns searching Ulleungdo, but they were all careless, inspecting only the exterior of the island. This has led to these evil practices.
—-
奎遠曰 謹當深入檢察矣 或稱松島竹島 在於鬱陵島之東而此非松竹島以外 別有松島竹島也
이규원이 아뢰기를, “삼가 깊이 들어가서 살펴보겠습니다. 어떤 사람들은 松島와 竹島는 울릉도의 동쪽에있다고 하지만 이것은 송죽도 밖에 따로 송도와 죽도가 있는 것은 아닙니다”라고 하였다.
Lee Gyu-won said, “I will go deep inside and conduct my inspection. It is occasionally called Songdo and Jukdo because it is to the east of Ulleungdo, but there is only Songjukdo, no separate Songdo and Jukdo.”
—-
敎曰 或有所得聞於曾往搜檢人之說耶
하교하기를, “혹시 그전에 가서 수색조사한 사람의 말을 들은 것이 있는가.”라고 하니
The king asked, “Did you possibly hear that from previous inspectors?”
—-
奎遠曰 曾往搜檢之人 未得逢著 而轉聞其梗개矣.
奎遠이 아뢰기를, “그전에 가서 수색조사한 사람은 만나지 못하였습니다. 대체적인 내용을 얻어 들었습니다”라고 하였다.
Lee Gyu-won said, “I have not yet talked with previous inspectors, but that is the summary of what I have heard.”
Here is your analysis of the conversation, Frogmouth:
The above conversation gives us some understanding as to the confusion Chosun was dealing with regarding Ulleungdo’s surrounding islands. It’s clear the king and Leekyuwon were sourcing their information differently while the king referred to historical documents Leekyuwon was using heresay through the “grapevine” as it were.
The information is a mosaic of facts but a few things can be ascertained. One of the islands was Jukdo Island about 2.2kms from the shore of Ulleungdo and the other was most likely Dokdo. The island of Songjukdo was most likely Dokdo Island. As mentioned above Leekyuwon’s second-hand information was that the distance to Songjukdo was 30 ri. In Chosun measurements 30 ri is about 12kms of which there are no islands even near. However in Japanese measurements about 30 ri is close to the distance to Dokdo.
The Japanese name for Dokdo was of course Songdo (松島) which is similar to Songjukdo. At this time about 30 percent of those living on Ulleungdo were (illegal) Japanese. The Japanese distance of 30 ri to Dokdo was also quoted in this document in 1903. Leekyuwon’s information may have been a combination of Japanese and Korean facts.
Despite the long distance between these islands the Koreans of the day still regarded both Usando and Songjukdo as part of Chosun from ancient times and as islands appended to Ulleungdo.
Here is my summary the conversation:
King Kojong believed there were two islands next to Ulleungdo names Songjukdo and Usando, but Lee Gyu-won told the king that Usando was just the name of the old country’s capital and that there was only one island next to Ulleungdo named “Songjukdo.” Lee said Songjukdo was 20 to 30 ri offshore and had rosewood trees and pipestem bamboo.
The king answered, “[It] is called Usando and Songjukdo, both of which are written in the YeojiSeung. [It] is also called Jukdo and Songdo, and together with Usando, three islands combine to make up what is called Ulleungdo.”
Lee continued to disagree with the king and said that Songjukdo was sometimes called “Songdo” and sometimes called “Jukdo,” but that there was only one neighboring island.
Here is my analysis of the conversation:
It apprears the Yeojiseungnam had mentioned both “Usando” and “Songjukdo,” which King Kojeong believed to be two separate islands rather than two names for one island. Lee Kyu-won believed there to be only one neighboring island named Songjukdo, which was sometimes also called “Songdo” and “Jukdo.” King Kojong seemed to agree that Songdo and Jukdo were other names for Songjukdo, but he seemed to continue to believe there was another island named Usando.
There are many problems with your analysis, Frogmouth. First, we do not know where Lee Gyu-won got his information, but he said that there were rosewood trees and pipestem bamboo on Songjukdo, which is something King Kojong did not appear to know. If there were rosewood trees and pipesteam bamboo on Songjukdo, then than would eliminate the possibility that Songjukdo could have been “Dokdo,” since “Dokdo” was just two barren rocks.
Second, both King Kojong and Lee Gyu-won said that other names for Songjukdo were “Songdo” and “Jukdo.” When Lee inspected the island, he learned that local residents there were using the name “Jukdo” to refer to present-day Jukdo, which is 2.2 kilometers off Ulleungdo’s east shore. Lee even drew a map that leaves little doubt that it was present-day Jukdo. Therefore, since both King Kojong and Lee Gyu-won said that Jukdo was another name for Songjukdo, your theory that Songjukdo was “Dokdo” lacks the support of the king of Korea and one of his top officials.
Third, Lee said that Songjukdo was 20 to 30 ri (相距爲三數十里) from Ulleungdo. I am not sure how to translate the Chinese, but if the Korean translation is correct, then 20 to 30 ri is 8 to 12 kilometers. The Korean measure of ri is 0.4 kilometers, and it is quite silly to suggest that Korean officials used the Japanese measure of a 4-kilometer ri, especially given the fact that both King Kojong and Lee Gyu-won said that Songjukdo and Jukdo were the same island. The document you referenced in your “analysis” was a Japanese document, not a Korean.gbevers from Korea (South)
Posted January 7, 2007 at 1:50 pm/Marmot
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